Help! no start - Page 2 - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

Racinfan83 · 06-04-2015

Good idea but one is 27 and we don't have contact - and the other is 26 and lives in Nashville Tn until next week when he moves to Phoenix... So I guess I gotta try and get my 6'1" 208lb self wiggled in there some how..

Kevin · 06-04-2015

skinny neighbors?

RussMcB · 06-05-2015

At a high level, there are two ways to attack it. One is to methodically determine why it isn't starting. The FSM has procedures to follow, but it can be a little intimidating. It is written for trained technicians with GM tools.

The other is to make guesses based on others' experiences. This forum has some very good suggestions. They helped me resolve my issue.

The problem with the second approach is later when the car is starting, you're not completely sure the real problem is fixed.

368zr1 · 06-05-2015

1st schematic is the 90 starter circuit. Notice the clutch safety switch is on the load side of the relay. When the CCM grounds the control side of the relay the relay energizes. 12 volts from the battery flows through the the relay contacts, the clutch safety switch then to the Purple wire going to the starter solenoid.

2nd schematic shows a 93 starter circuit. I'm not sure what year GM redesigned the starter circuit. Notice the clutch safety switch is now on the control side of the relay so they obviously did this to correct a problem. When the relay closes 12 volts from the battery goes through the relay and to the Purple wire of the starter solenoid.

90 Starter circuit.

93 Starter circuit.

Racinfan83 · 06-05-2015

Thanks Guys! I have read about this multiple times - one of those things I hoped would never happen to me I guess...
Pretty sure I will do the relay deal like Dyno suggests. I'm not an electrical guru - I can run wires and such but have no idea how to read a meter or test circuits. Dyno if you can tell me a part number for that relay and where I can get one I would much appreciate it! I have no idea what SPDT or amperage or any of that is. I can see the diagram and the pics and figure out how to run the wires - just not savvy on the technical details...
Now after doing that - everything is bypassed - correct? Meaning I don't have to mess with the clutch switch or any of that? So if after doing the relay I still have a problem - it would then be the starter solenoid?
Do you solder the connections on this deal or just use quality crimp connectors?
Sorry if I'm rehashing stuff already covered elsewhere - but I have been so busy the last few months I barely have time to sleep - and the "Forum Search" function will not work on my phone...

RussMcB · 06-05-2015

I'll toss in a few thoughts, while you're waiting for the smarter guys to respond. :-)

I believe, the starter relay mod does NOT bypass everything (VATS, clutch, ...), but it does allow a strong 12+ volts directly (almost) from the battery to the starter. IOW, the power does not need to go through other devices first.

Relays are pretty common devices. Most auto parts sell them. They are used for things like adding more powerful lights to cars. I think I read here that our starters use up to 40 amps, so you'll want to buy one rated at least that high. I bought mine off ebay. It was rated at 75 amps (overkill) and had a handy mounting tab attached.

If you do the relay mod, spend a few extra minutes to make something to use in emergency situations that WILL bypass everything and let you touch the purple starter wire to the battery. Of course, make very sure the car is in neutral and emergency brake on or terrible things will happen.

If you have a friend to assist who is familiar with crimp-on terminals, heat shrink tubing, etc, this is an easy mod for you to tackle. It took me 1-2 hours, taking my time.

Racinfan83 · 06-05-2015

I can do the heat shrink tubing, crimps and all that. Good with mechanical stuff - not so good with diagnosis/technical stuff...

Racinfan83 · 06-05-2015

Dyno that is frickin awesome! Incredible write up. Even a dummy like me can do that..

I have ordered that relay on EBay and will get the other stuff I need. One thing I don't quite understand on your instructions is this:

Quote:

The Hot wire is attached to the Multiple Connector with a 12 gauge 1/4 inch connector
(one of the 24 inch wires made up with a 3/8 inch 12 gauge female Connector) and
secured to the top of the multiple connector as shown with a 10 mm nut).

What is the "Multiple Connector" and is this telling me I don't run any wires straight to the battery itself? Looking at the diagram Crabs posted somewhere it appears it was wired to the battery terminals?
I got the ground from the relay to chassis ground part - makes sense - just don't know what this Multiple connector is. Keep in mind I've never had the battery out of the car so I don't know what's in there...

Racinfan83 · 06-06-2015

Ok very cool. I will get the stuff I need and tackle this in the near future. Will probably get a new battery too since I will have it out anyway. Thanks - this site is AWESOME!

ZR1North · 06-06-2015

I know that the bypass jumpers, intermediate relays, etc. have worked for others - at least for a while. I tried all those fixes and had short-to -medium-term success, but I did not get total resolution until I had Marc replace the starter with the more robust solenoid. I removed all the "other fixes" once the new starter/solenoid was installed about 10,000 miles/five years ago, and I've had no problems since. I initially encountered the no-start at about 21,000 miles. I am sure Marc would provide the details re the solenoid if asked.

06-04-2015	#11
Racinfan83 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Eastern Missouri Posts: 773	Re: Help! no start Good idea but one is 27 and we don't have contact - and the other is 26 and lives in Nashville Tn until next week when he moves to Phoenix... So I guess I gotta try and get my 6'1" 208lb self wiggled in there some how.. __________________ [LEFT][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/LEFT] [CENTER][COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=4][I][B] Now Sold 1990 ZR-1 #2093, Black on Black..[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR][/CENTER]

06-04-2015	#12
Kevin Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: pittsburgh Posts: 4,633	Re: Help! no start skinny neighbors? __________________ It's not the car, it's the people - Doug Johnson 90 r/r "KEYS ON" nick named "T.L.B"

06-05-2015	#13
RussMcB Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Marietta, GA USA Posts: 1,160	Re: Help! no start At a high level, there are two ways to attack it. One is to methodically determine why it isn't starting. The FSM has procedures to follow, but it can be a little intimidating. It is written for trained technicians with GM tools. The other is to make guesses based on others' experiences. This forum has some very good suggestions. They helped me resolve my issue. The problem with the second approach is later when the car is starting, you're not completely sure the real problem is fixed.

06-05-2015	#14
368zr1 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Annapolis, MD Posts: 12	Re: Help! no start 1st schematic is the 90 starter circuit. Notice the clutch safety switch is on the load side of the relay. When the CCM grounds the control side of the relay the relay energizes. 12 volts from the battery flows through the the relay contacts, the clutch safety switch then to the Purple wire going to the starter solenoid. 2nd schematic shows a 93 starter circuit. I'm not sure what year GM redesigned the starter circuit. Notice the clutch safety switch is now on the control side of the relay so they obviously did this to correct a problem. When the relay closes 12 volts from the battery goes through the relay and to the Purple wire of the starter solenoid. 90 Starter circuit. 93 Starter circuit.

06-05-2015	#15
Racinfan83 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Eastern Missouri Posts: 773	Re: Help! no start Thanks Guys! I have read about this multiple times - one of those things I hoped would never happen to me I guess... Pretty sure I will do the relay deal like Dyno suggests. I'm not an electrical guru - I can run wires and such but have no idea how to read a meter or test circuits. Dyno if you can tell me a part number for that relay and where I can get one I would much appreciate it! I have no idea what SPDT or amperage or any of that is. I can see the diagram and the pics and figure out how to run the wires - just not savvy on the technical details... Now after doing that - everything is bypassed - correct? Meaning I don't have to mess with the clutch switch or any of that? So if after doing the relay I still have a problem - it would then be the starter solenoid? Do you solder the connections on this deal or just use quality crimp connectors? Sorry if I'm rehashing stuff already covered elsewhere - but I have been so busy the last few months I barely have time to sleep - and the "Forum Search" function will not work on my phone... __________________ [LEFT][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/LEFT] [CENTER][COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=4][I][B] Now Sold 1990 ZR-1 #2093, Black on Black..[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR][/CENTER]

06-05-2015	#16
RussMcB Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Marietta, GA USA Posts: 1,160	Re: Help! no start I'll toss in a few thoughts, while you're waiting for the smarter guys to respond. :-) I believe, the starter relay mod does NOT bypass everything (VATS, clutch, ...), but it does allow a strong 12+ volts directly (almost) from the battery to the starter. IOW, the power does not need to go through other devices first. Relays are pretty common devices. Most auto parts sell them. They are used for things like adding more powerful lights to cars. I think I read here that our starters use up to 40 amps, so you'll want to buy one rated at least that high. I bought mine off ebay. It was rated at 75 amps (overkill) and had a handy mounting tab attached. If you do the relay mod, spend a few extra minutes to make something to use in emergency situations that WILL bypass everything and let you touch the purple starter wire to the battery. Of course, make very sure the car is in neutral and emergency brake on or terrible things will happen. If you have a friend to assist who is familiar with crimp-on terminals, heat shrink tubing, etc, this is an easy mod for you to tackle. It took me 1-2 hours, taking my time.

06-05-2015	#17
Racinfan83 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Eastern Missouri Posts: 773	Re: Help! no start I can do the heat shrink tubing, crimps and all that. Good with mechanical stuff - not so good with diagnosis/technical stuff... __________________ [LEFT][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/LEFT] [CENTER][COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=4][I][B] Now Sold 1990 ZR-1 #2093, Black on Black..[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR][/CENTER]

06-06-2015	#19
Racinfan83 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Eastern Missouri Posts: 773	Re: Help! no start Ok very cool. I will get the stuff I need and tackle this in the near future. Will probably get a new battery too since I will have it out anyway. Thanks - this site is AWESOME! __________________ [LEFT][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/LEFT] [CENTER][COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=4][I][B] Now Sold 1990 ZR-1 #2093, Black on Black..[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR][/CENTER]

06-06-2015	#20
ZR1North Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan Posts: 562	Re: Help! no start I know that the bypass jumpers, intermediate relays, etc. have worked for others - at least for a while. I tried all those fixes and had short-to -medium-term success, but I did not get total resolution until I had Marc replace the starter with the more robust solenoid. I removed all the "other fixes" once the new starter/solenoid was installed about 10,000 miles/five years ago, and I've had no problems since. I initially encountered the no-start at about 21,000 miles. I am sure Marc would provide the details re the solenoid if asked.