Starter motor failure - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

irpearce · 03-12-2019

I think I have read every word on here (and elsewhere) regarding the dreaded no start. I have done all the corrections - purple wire, relay, direct wire from solenoid to be touched to battery positive- and it still won't start as soon as it gets hot. The starter throws when hot but does not crank. I had the starter motor rebuilt last year and it was OK for a while. I am in UK so am short of good resources.
It ALWAYS cranks strongly and starts when COLD, even after standing for two weeks so battery is fine (and only a year old). When hot I can usually get it to crank weakly (enough to start) by using jumper leads. My battery has 60AH and 550CCA.
The motor is out again and back with the starter company who I trust as experts. They confirm my view that the fault must be with the starter but they say that they cannot fault it on any test (as should be the case as it's barely done any work). They have sent it for a second opinion.
My question is - can anybody indicate what to look at in the starter itself so that I can pass this knowledge on.( or indeed any new suggestions)
This is ruining my enjoyment of this fine car.

Reichert · 03-12-2019

If you read every word I guess you read my recent saga. Hopefully you've also been stranded within walking distance of pubs ..

Anyhow, the best info I found was from this article: http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20W...%20Probems.pdf

He explains at the end of the article why a no-start condition could be caused by the starter itself:

"OE solenoid coils that I have seen are wound unevenly. The turns of wire cross over each other. This creates pressure points that might break down the shellac insulation coating on the wires and lead to a short circuit between turns. The insulating coating is further stressed by the oven like environment that the starter lives in. This could cause a silent no start condition."

I just replaced mine with a part # matching Remy rebuilt unit. So far so good.

-Stephen

lfalzarano · 03-12-2019

Jerry’s sells a totally refurbished starter, not one that was repaired.

Also check the leads connections at the starter. They tend to deteriorate under the heat and age.

Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry

Paul Workman · 03-12-2019

"Rebuilding" a starter: service actions are confined to electrical connections, etc., and bearings/bendix. As pointed out ^^^^ the windings of the solenoid are not usually included in a starter rebuild "kit".

If your purple wire voltage is normal when cranking, and the connection to the starter is clean and not shorted, and the solenoid actuated contacts are in good condition, its time to swap out the starter, OR change out the solenoid coil...if that is even possible [that I don't know].

Give Jerry's Gaskets a try, if a local parts store doesn't carry the Denso starter (these starters are installed in many Japanese cars and many domestics as well: not uncommon to find in better parts outlets, you may find).

WVZR-1 · 03-12-2019

OP - if your starter is actually in a shop ask that they check the solenoid coil. A 'denso coil should be an easy find for a professional shop.

I'd think these are potential coil replacements

WAI 66-82456 or maybe an Accurate 7-1113 OR 6790-9507

A shop should be able to confirm

***I don't know that you could rule out just a battery. 550CCA. I'm quite sure a local fellow close by had a similar issue 'always' when shut down @ temp. Battery I'm real sure fixed him. 650CCA or better maybe fix.

irpearce · 03-12-2019

Thanks for help. No, I wasn't anywhere near a pub! Saved by a jump from a trucker. Mine is not like any of the Starter Diagnosis write up. When hot it tries to start but sounds just like the battery is flat - but it's not. Checked and double checked battery, earth, and solenoid positive connections. Will make suggestions to motor shop.

Ccmano · 03-12-2019

This sounds interesting. Can’t wait to hear the outcome.
H

BYEBYE2U · 03-12-2019

Starter in ZR1s lives in a HOT environment
Have the starter heated by a blow drier while it's out of the car
You'll find out if it is windings or starter selenoid ....etc

WVZR-1 · 03-13-2019

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYEBYE2U

Starter in ZR1s lives in a HOT environment
Have the starter heated by a blow drier while it's out of the car
You'll find out if it is windings or starter selenoid ....etc

I don't know if a 'hair blow' dryer would accomplish the needed 'heat soak' but I'd think a commercial 'heat gun' I'm sure would.

***You also need to consider 'on the bench' can't possibly duplicate an 'in car' experience!

irpearce · 03-19-2019

Well I got my starter back and fitted. It is far stronger sounding and faster than the previous "rebuilt" one and so far is starting hot no problem. The supplier is avoiding giving details beyond "we completely rebuilt it again with new parts". I'm afraid I think that they just did a lousy job, or used lousy components at the first rebuild.

03-12-2019	#1
irpearce Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cornwall UK Posts: 5	Starter motor failure I think I have read every word on here (and elsewhere) regarding the dreaded no start. I have done all the corrections - purple wire, relay, direct wire from solenoid to be touched to battery positive- and it still won't start as soon as it gets hot. The starter throws when hot but does not crank. I had the starter motor rebuilt last year and it was OK for a while. I am in UK so am short of good resources. It ALWAYS cranks strongly and starts when COLD, even after standing for two weeks so battery is fine (and only a year old). When hot I can usually get it to crank weakly (enough to start) by using jumper leads. My battery has 60AH and 550CCA. The motor is out again and back with the starter company who I trust as experts. They confirm my view that the fault must be with the starter but they say that they cannot fault it on any test (as should be the case as it's barely done any work). They have sent it for a second opinion. My question is - can anybody indicate what to look at in the starter itself so that I can pass this knowledge on.( or indeed any new suggestions) This is ruining my enjoyment of this fine car.

03-12-2019	#2
Reichert Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 104	Re: Starter motor failure If you read every word I guess you read my recent saga. Hopefully you've also been stranded within walking distance of pubs .. Anyhow, the best info I found was from this article: http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20W...%20Probems.pdf He explains at the end of the article why a no-start condition could be caused by the starter itself: "OE solenoid coils that I have seen are wound unevenly. The turns of wire cross over each other. This creates pressure points that might break down the shellac insulation coating on the wires and lead to a short circuit between turns. The insulating coating is further stressed by the oven like environment that the starter lives in. This could cause a silent no start condition." I just replaced mine with a part # matching Remy rebuilt unit. So far so good. -Stephen __________________ -Stephen 1990 #2288

03-12-2019	#3
lfalzarano Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Clayton, North Carolina Posts: 1,133	Re: Starter motor failure Jerry’s sells a totally refurbished starter, not one that was repaired. Also check the leads connections at the starter. They tend to deteriorate under the heat and age. Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry __________________ Lou[COLOR="Red"][B][SIZE="4"][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

03-12-2019	#4
Paul Workman Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Squires (near Ava MO in the Mark Twain N'tl Forest) - Missouri Posts: 6,493	Re: Starter motor failure "Rebuilding" a starter: service actions are confined to electrical connections, etc., and bearings/bendix. As pointed out ^^^^ the windings of the solenoid are not usually included in a starter rebuild "kit". If your purple wire voltage is normal when cranking, and the connection to the starter is clean and not shorted, and the solenoid actuated contacts are in good condition, its time to swap out the starter, OR change out the solenoid coil...if that is even possible [that I don't know]. Give Jerry's Gaskets a try, if a local parts store doesn't carry the Denso starter (these starters are installed in many Japanese cars and many domestics as well: not uncommon to find in better parts outlets, you may find). __________________ Good carz, good food, good friendz = the best of timez! 90 #1202 "FBI" top end ported & relieved Cam timing by "Pete the Greek" Sans secondaries Chip & dyno tuning by Haibeck Automotive SW headers, X-pipe, MF muffs Former Secretary, ZR-1 Net Registry

03-12-2019	#5
WVZR-1 Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,889	Re: Starter motor failure OP - if your starter is actually in a shop ask that they check the solenoid coil. A 'denso coil should be an easy find for a professional shop. I'd think these are potential coil replacements WAI 66-82456 or maybe an Accurate 7-1113 OR 6790-9507 A shop should be able to confirm **I don't know that you could rule out just a battery. 550CCA. I'm quite sure a local fellow close by had a similar issue 'always' when shut down @ temp. Battery I'm real sure fixed him. 650CCA or better maybe fix. Last edited by WVZR-1; 03-12-2019 at 11:20 AM.*

03-12-2019	#6
irpearce Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cornwall UK Posts: 5	Re: Starter motor failure Thanks for help. No, I wasn't anywhere near a pub! Saved by a jump from a trucker. Mine is not like any of the Starter Diagnosis write up. When hot it tries to start but sounds just like the battery is flat - but it's not. Checked and double checked battery, earth, and solenoid positive connections. Will make suggestions to motor shop.

03-12-2019	#7
Ccmano Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sparks, NV Posts: 2,852	Re: Starter motor failure This sounds interesting. Can’t wait to hear the outcome. H __________________ 90'ZR-1 #1461 Red/Black Ported Intake, Degreed Cams, OBX Headers & Exhaust, Fidanza FW, Secondary Delete, Custom tune, C6 GS Wheels. Sold 08 C6 Z51 Crystal Red Metallic Sold Vararam Intake, Tune, Sold 05 C6 Z51 Red/Black Sold 90'ZR-1 #1723 Black/Gray Sold but not forgotten 91' Z51 L98 White Vert. My First, you always remember your first. Sold.

03-12-2019	#8
BYEBYE2U Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: NYC Posts: 30	Re: Starter motor failure Starter in ZR1s lives in a HOT environment Have the starter heated by a blow drier while it's out of the car You'll find out if it is windings or starter selenoid ....etc

03-19-2019	#10
irpearce Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cornwall UK Posts: 5	Re: Starter motor failure Well I got my starter back and fitted. It is far stronger sounding and faster than the previous "rebuilt" one and so far is starting hot no problem. The supplier is avoiding giving details beyond "we completely rebuilt it again with new parts". I'm afraid I think that they just did a lousy job, or used lousy components at the first rebuild.