Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Allright here we are....its like an old house or in my case an old 50's area Jet we in the Airforce are STILL USING!!....every time you figure out one problem...BAM!..another one pops up.....:censored:

Anywho!.....I figured out the Pin was the problem with the CODE 42...NOW as soon as I started it up,The idel seemed great but as soon as I gave it gas it sputters/smells of gas and tries to stall...and is has a definate MISS!...

so here are the symptoms!:

*Idles rough
*smokes out the drivers side bank
*backfires(once or twice)
*OBVIOUS MISS on rev up
*NO CODES:cheers:
*SMELLS of FUEL
*light "Ticking"(Injector?)

I have pulled the plenum off just to check everything and everything is good:

* I am running Autolight Double platnum, gauged at .32
* Wires are new
* Injectors are new(rebuilt FIC)
* Removed secondary control system
* Chip'd by Pete to include secondary removal
* ALL vaccum removed or replaced except required to run the HVAC and ect.


MEOW> With the code #42 I was told by Tom it was running in LIMP MODE...If that is the case the secondary injectors would not have been used right??....now that the code is cleared I am now trying to use a bad injector?(that would have been bad the whole time and not know it?)

I would rather NOT pull the plenum AGAIN till I can narrow it down!....to something.

What ya'll think???????:handshak:




(How many people caught the "meow"?..(Super troopers...HA!)

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

FIC rebuilt = possible bad injector. Not a Knock on Jon. This is always a possibility when using rebuilt parts. Your symptoms, now that the pin is straight, are that the left bank has one or more dumping fuel or no spark....I vote for dumping fuel as you say it smokes...black smoke of a rich condition? What does the tail pipe on the left side smell like, unburnt fuel???

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

yuuup..and the whole garage smells of fuel too. I pulled #1 and #3 plugs and #1 was soaking wet and #3 was real rich...

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Is any of this a remnant of having been in "limp home" mode?
Have u had an opportunity to wring the car out?

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Nah the only real difference I noticed was lack of power, fluctuation of idle and hesitation and the code..it ran at least! so I dont know if there could be a issue from the limp mode...who knows

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

When I fixed my mistake and unbent the pin the car returned to normal with out me using my scanner to erase the code.

:cheers:
Tom
If you are coming to BG then just give it to me there. No sweat!

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

My feeling is that either that spark to cyls 1 & 3 is no good; or the injectors at those cylinders are sticking open/leaking large amounts of fuel. The thing is to know how the fuel program was set up so you can know at what % off idle the second set comes on line.

See with the OE system at idle if the car behaves like yours you could say with a high degree of certainty that the primary injectors at 1 & 3 are stuck open or/and leaking fuel. With the secondary delete i don't know enough to make a stronger statement than I suspect that those injectors are fubared or those cylinders are getting no spark.

:cheers:
Tom

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

so throw the stock chip in to see if it runs??

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

sorry I had some job related stuff to do.:o You can't use the stock chip to my way of thinking because you took out all the hardware for the factory secondaries. JMHO. Slim chance that it will set all kinds of DTC's associated with the secondary system ( missing parts ) and turn into an L98...which could be fine for checking the primary injectors against leaking...maybe.

I don't know enough of this electronics stuff to say for sure. My reasoning is that if there is a DTC set for engine management hardware, the ECM is programed to "lock out" the secondary system and run the motor on what basically is an L98 program: batch fire on the injectors if I am not mistaken. If that is truly the case then yes using the stock PROM will let you know if the primaries are leaking or have some other issue because the symptoms should be exactly the same. Conversely, if the issue is with your secondary injectors, then the bad behavior should not evidence itself....I'm just not sure if my theory holds water when dealing with a secondary delete motor.:o

:cheers:
Tom

Just to be clear on my lack of knowledge: the "lock out" is programed into the stock PROM as a safety precaution. If any motor related DTC is set, the secondaries are "locked out" until the DTC is cleared & repaired. That is the OEM programing. I have no clue what differences a secondary delete program entails.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Here's shot in the dark.
Try pulling the battery to reset everything.
Then if still running crappy.....
do a fuel pressure leak down test.
If it looses pressure in a few seconds. ....
yah, leaky injectors.

Sorry did not follow the bent pin thing.
Was it under the plenum?
When it was straightened it ran fine for more than
one start-up or ???

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

You won't be the first to have issues with FIC Injectors.

You know for the price,he does back up his product and he will replace the injectors till you get the right ones that work what FIC
doesn't understand is the labor and $30 gaskets it takes to change the injectors each time.

Accel Injectors are brand new best bang for the buck.

You can run the stock chip just for checking.
Pete

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

That is true,...I am changing to the stock prom just to test them.. I am guessing under normal operation with the stock prom the secondary injectors are not getting the pressure until 3800 rpm.. if that the case the car should run great until then...

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

I don't want to bad mouth FIC in any way...but there were two seperate installations of FIC rebuilt injectors here in WAZOO land last summer and both had issues and had to be replaced. I replaced mine with the FIC stainless injectors, a bit pricey, but are working flawlessly.
Rich

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

For the last ten years I have been using the same gasket.
I cut it from rubber from an inner tube. It does not stick around
the water jacket holes and seals much better because it keeps
it's resiliency.

I tried looking up the Accel injectors. They don't say if they are
stainless steal or if they are "flow matched" to each other.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

And a couple here in FBI land.

Just the thought of having to do the job twice or 3 times, yuk.

Stock settings, if at WOT or more then 94% throttle secondaries are on at any RPM.

With no secondaries the way i set them up is secondary injectors go on with .001% throttle.

I don't think Accel makes the injectors i forgot who makes them, maybe Lucas not sure.
Pete

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Just to check fundamentals...

is the firing order correct? I wouldn't go too much further until you can trace out which wires go to which coil post.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Marc H did a presentation last year on rebuilt injectors. The problem isn't the nozzle or mechanicals but rather the injector coil which is not rebuilt. Of the issues I have heard of w FIC, they have always been stand-up about backing their product. That's not the issue. But w 20year old injector coils, its a problem waiting to happen. My Accels have ~20K on them without a hiccup. I was fortunate enough to get them when Atlantic Speed still sold them so reasonable price.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

I agree with Mike100. Go back to the first start up after rebuild. Has the car ever run properly?

I wonder if there is some fundamental timing or fuel problem that was masked by the seemingly OK operation that was really just the engine running in Ignition Module spark control mode ( I can't remember the correct name, but it means that the ECM is not controlling the spark timing.)

Jim

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

OK after a bit of troubleshooting this is what I have:

with the stock chip in and it idles fine.(although it is running rich on the drivers side),..So I have replaced ALL the spark plugs but no change with the modded chip(have not tried the stock chip with new plugs....

My only question with Jim's post is...the car ran fine(all be it with no power, a little hesitation,and the idle fluctuation BUT NO missing...(the moment I fixed the pin- the car ran like S^&t..all vacuum is checked,...NO codes...

Bottom line its missing and the only thing that has came on line is the secondaries because of the removal of the code #42.


Any other way to check this??

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Are the sparks as lively on the drivers side as the passenger side?
It's easy to check with a spark tester or just put a plug in the end
of each wire one at a time. Maybe when under the plenum last a wire
or two got unplugged?

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

You say you put in new plugs and it idled OK. If the previous plugs were getting wetted (due to a leaking injector or two) it is possible that new (dry) plugs would idle OK, if the injector(s) are not leaking too badly. However, pull the plugs again and see if the wet cylinders are still fouling/wetting the plugs. If so -

- you can eliminate cross-wiring the plugs, or idle would have been bad
- the symtoms you describe, coupled with the symptoms (and the track record of used injectors) screams "do a leak-down test!!" (if you haven't already done so) and get back with the results. IMO, I would want to know the results of that test before recommending anything else.

BTW, here's a suggestion that might cut down on the gasket cost when pulling the plenum:

Holding the gasket far away from the car and motor, spray the plenum side of the gasket with silicon, leaving the IH side dry. (NEVER do this with while the gasket is resting on the IH as the silicon will KILL the oxygen sensors!!)

With the IH absolutely clean and dry of any oil or whatever (use a razor blade to skim off any RTV, for example, and then use the tri or tetra-cabon type brake cleaner (NOT the petroleum based junk) and get the IH absolutely clean.

Then use thin smear of the blue Permatex RTV gasket sealant around the IH ports and place the gasket down on the IH, making sure the ports and holes line up before pressing it down and letting it set up for 20 minutes or so.

Now, when you remove the plenum the next time, all you have to do is remove the bolts and slip a thin putty knife between the plenum and the gasket and slide the putty knife across the length of the gasket to release it from the plenum without damaging the gasket. I have found I can reuse the gasket several times - which comes in handy when troubleshooting chit under the plenum.

Tom: FYI, the secondary delete program runs on the primaries only at idle. At ≈1% throttle, the secondaries are turned on, and the dwell time is halved to provide proper AFR. But, (and here's the kicker) if for any reason a code, and especially a SES light comes on, or an intermittent FULL ENGINE POWER switch opens up, the secondaries are shut off. Now, there's trouble because the dwell time is halved, & the primaries cannot make up the difference, due to the program. That's NOT GOOD. In other words, if running or someone you know is running secondary delete, you do NOT want to be driving the car; it's much more severe than simply reverting to L98 mode! In closed loop the ECM can make up for some of the loss, but not all. Better to tow it than to limp home and cook a valve or worse.

Fortuneately, a big chunk of the problems causing codes go away with the secondaries removed, and NEW injectors are the other half of the equation for running sans secondaries.

Going back to the alcohol problem with old injectors... The problem is a lean conditon as the windings short out, due to alcohol; the diminished field becomes too weak to actuate the injector (pintel), for example. A leaking injector is more of a mechanical seal problem and not usually alcohol-related - or more likely the result of some crud in the fuel gumming up the works.

I've seen perhaps a dozen or more posts over the years where "rebuilt" injectors have resulted in having to be replaced. IMO, tearing the plenum apart again (and again) to replace the bad injector, AND, running the risk of bent pins or vacuum leaks FAR outweighs the cost of buying new ones in the first place. No secondaries and new** injectors, and life is GOOD 99% of the time!

**I recall Bob G had a situation where a new injector leaked, big-time. Chit happens.

P.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Hey Paul!

Ok So today I am going to pull the secondary injector Fuse just to see if that calms the idle down...

if it does I will go ahead and put in the old secondaries that are ohming good,...I can pull a plenum in 20 min,..also I have the thicker gaskets from jerry,..they are great!

Any thoughts?

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Yeah...

The secondaries are not on at idle...NOT ON

LEAK-down test: Results???

P.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

The single largest failure of the original pintel designed injectors was rust. They were not stainless steel. Shorting of windings was related to engine overheating issues. I say this because these issues showed up before alcohol was introduced in fuel in the NW. I have not seen any evidence that alcohol contributes to this but it doesn't mean it's not out there.

On this current issue of fouled plugs. I had ign wire come loose at the coil and it idled just fine. Under load it would foul and the engine ran rough. Plug was wet when it was pulled. But then I had just one loose wire. Don't know what 2 would be like.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Lemme hit the "pause" button...

There is ample evidence and documentation pointing to the soluability of the (shelac like) coating of the pre 93 OEM injector coil wires due to alcohol exposure.

One case does not a trend make, but even I recently had several NOS injectors heading down the (ohm's) scale in just 3 years of exposure...and the engine never over heated even once in that 3-year period. Not dismissing abnormal heat or it's potential for destroying the insulation, sans alcohol, because stuff happens. But, in contrast to a heat event, the chemically related (alcohol) dissolving of the (shelac-like) insulation is more of an insideous phenomenon: unlike an abrupt change that would be in kind with my experience with over-heated coils (shorting) and the results thereof. (I guess that's going all the way around the barn to cast doubt on the notion that long term coil shorting is due to incidental heat over chemical (alcohol) related deteriorization of the wire insulation.;))

As for the wet plugs, you make a good point; it could be a wire or some other related issue (like mice that nested on top of my coils and re-arranged the "furniture" by chewing on the "LT5" plug wires...:mad:).

Anyway, I recon it would be easy enough to verify by reading the resistance between the two plug wires (shared by the one coil) and comparing the results with the rest of the wires. It wouldn't be fool proof, as the VOM is a low (battery operated) device. A megger would be better suited for testing high voltage circuits, I recon.

To the OP, with regard to scottfab's point about a connection, testing results of the (1-6, 2-3, 4-7, 5-8) pairs of wires (shared by a single coil) may likely show some variation of resistance readings, due to the various wire lengths. But! An "open" reading, or even a x2 reading (compared to the average of the others) would indicate trouble somewhere. It could be wires, or coil or connections. If the wires check out, a fuel pressure leak-down test could be set up quicker than it takes to read this thread, and you still wouldn't need to pull the plenum. If the leak-down fails, and without additional clues (such as your wet plugs), I'd be isolating the fuel rail from the pumps and testing the fuel pump check valves and the fuel rail individually. But, in your case, and if as scottfab pointed out, there is no apparent wiring problem, wet plugs, coupled with fuel smell, and failed leak-down test = plenum time again!

Good luck,
P.

Re: Plenums, Injectors, Secondaries
 

Correction: I think you mean Plenum Gasket instead of Injector Housing Gasket.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

FOLKS,....Problem #1 Solved!!!!..I changed the secondary injectors and NO MORE missing!,...:cheers::handshak:

I working with Pete with a couple other issues:

Idle at 1050
crank case back pressure
vacuum leak at the PCV valve boot!.


Issue I have is I am blowing smoke on hard throttle, Spark plugs are clean but the top of the pistons are wet...

Our guess is: PCV valve boot leaking, drawing oil into the system,...also causing crankcase pressure.

I also Had the oil dip stick out becuase I have to get the adapter for headers.!!! anyone have one??

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Great news!
As for the PCV hose, I see a couple in ebay.
For the dipstick tube I think I got mine from one of the registry member. Push come to shove we can fabricate an aluminum strap - did this w/ Billy's white ZR-1.
BTW, if PCV top connector is leaking, this could cause high idle.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Just happen to have 4 of 'em in stock...

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...et005Large.jpg

PM me w/ you addy, and I'll get one out to ya.

P.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Dempsey,
Glad to hear you got your miss fixed. On the smoking issue, did you install crankcase vent material back in the cam covers before installation? That's the scotch brite material behind the chain guard. If that is not present, I wonder if that would cause excessive oil to be drawn into the PCV system. Just shooting in the dark, maybe someone else can chime in on this.
Rich

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

On the crankcase vent, I would suggest using the material Marc H has rather than scotchbrite. I went thru this last year. CC was pressurizing at WOT. I was getting a slight pooling of oil at the cam cover bolt head adjacent to the vent tube boss. Also, oil on oil pan stud at front corner of pan on passenger side.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

I dont remeber,..but the material was pretty brittle.....in theroy,..could I not put that material into the hoses from the vent and accomplish the same thing?

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

I don't know about doing that, I used the material from Marc H. As Xfirez51 mentions above, you could cause yourself more problems if the material is too dense. If the old material was re-installed, you should be OK.
Rich

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

well I dont think I want to go pulling off my cam covers just to check,..If its just to screen out oil from fumes to the airhorn,..I wonder if I could put material at the holes entrance.

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Buy small vent filters take hoses off TB and clamp the vent filters in place.

Pete

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

pete,..which filters and where?

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

I'm not sure but I think Pete had this product in mind.:o

http://www.jegs.com/i/K%26amp%3BN/599/62-1300/10002/-1

I was thinking I might try two of these someday myself, and see what happens.

:cheers:
Tom

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

After further thought....I figure that I was looking at the wrong stuff! :o

I would buy two of these, take Marc's stuff and use it in place of the filter material that comes with these fuel filters.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Spectre/865/2369/10002/-1

:cheers:
Tom

Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN
 

Guys!...great ideas,..but..where from the outlet of the cam cover to the airhorn are they going to fit??...I know from experience you cant even put a red/blue fitting on the cam cover outlet because of the clearance.

Purolator has material that designed for this(oil/air breathing),..its just a matter of putting it inline that is clean and unobtrusive...

still working on the pcv/idle issue,..should have that ironed out today,..i am going to design something cool...

AND I got my oil catch can!

With that said,...I am humbled by the knowledge and the sheer willingness to help us in need,..and it really flows both ways,...

:cheers::handshak: