Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Hi all,

I'm a new owner of a stock '95 car with 26K miles. I took delivery in early January, and I've tried to start and run the car every few weeks to circulate fluids, etc.

The last time I started it, I noticed a loud tick from under the passenger's side cam cover, toward the front of the engine. It's definitely a mechanical sound, i.e. not a noisy injector or exhaust leak. It seems to match cam timing, as the noise occurs about 5 times/sec at idle. Oil pressure has always been fine. There are no alarming sounds from any other part of the engine. I changed the oil and filter and have let the engine run until it's warm, but the noise persists.

For what it's worth, the car is in an unheated garage, and we have had some very cold nights here in New England.

Here's some cell phone video of the problem - pardon the rotated video, but the audio is the main point:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B83...ew?usp=sharing
(Note that you can still hear it when the camera is on the LH side of the engine, but that's only because the noise is loud enough to always be audible in the background.)

Any ideas on how I should approach this? I'm preparing myself for the possibility that I'll need to remove the cams on that side to replace the lifters. Is there anything else that I should try before this?

Assuming that I do need to replace lifters, can this be done with the engine in the car?

--Colin

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Does it tick more quickly when you rev the engine? Seems like sort of a silly question but if it's something external, maybe the tick speed and engine speed would be unrelated? Figured it couldn't hurt to ask since you didn't mention it.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Dual mass flywheel? Or lack there of? Where in NH are you?

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Check for exhaust leaks....I have a ticking lifter, but not that loud. Does it idle smooth? Dual Mass Flywheel? belt tensioner?

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Video sounds nasty.
You might try slacking the belt tensioner with the engine running to see if it makes any difference.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Yes, the tick follows the engine speed. It will increase in rate if I bring the revs up past idle. The idle is smooth. Engine never stumbles, and doesn't sound like it's missing.

A couple of you have asked about the flywheel. How might this contribute to the noise? I don't have any particular reason to believe that it's ever been replaced -- does that mean it's the dual-mass part?

It's difficult to tell from the video, but the sound certainly seems to come from under the cam cover (at cyl #2) rather than from something external at the front of the engine.

I'll check out the belt tensioner. Is the thought that the tensioner itself might be bad, or that the belt tension is causing some other problem?

I'm in Merrimack, NH.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Throw some Marvel Mystery oil into oil. Let it run through. See if lifter quiets down.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Lifter or maybe a bad valve spring?

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

When I bought my car, it had bad injectors, which caused a misfire and a slightly rough idle, which in turn caused the dual mass flywheel to rattle...all very common on early cars which still have the original injectors. It sounded like a rod knock or a spun main bearing. That rattle was completely inconsistent with engine speed; revving it a bit made the rattle stop. From both the sound I hear in your video and your description, I'd say there's no chance that it's the DMF.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Also, that is not the belt tensioner. Mine was bad and I had Marc rebuild it. It does not tick like that...mine made a high-pitched whining/squealing sound.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

No...I would say not.....hard to remove cam covers engine in car and very difficult to set camshaft timing engine in car.
Having said that....it is definitely worth removing one or both cam covers with engine in car to inspect camshafts and lifters for strange wear patterns or damage of any kind. When Cam Covers are removed do NOT get the idea you can start the engine to listen/watch as the Cam Covers are the top bearings for the Camshafts. You can however (with Cam Covers Removed), rotate the crankshaft slowly by hand with a long socket wrench on the Harmonic Balancer Bolt and watch for a sticky lifter or other aberations. All lifters in this case will be/will collapse if left sitting for several hours with lifter compressed since there is no oil pressure to pump them up.

Another idea......remove the serpentine belt and fire the engine up just for a minute or two. That will eliminate any noise from the Alternator, AC Compressor, Belt Tensioner, Power Steering Pump, or Water Pump.

I concur.....

I concur ......but listening to a cell phone rendition of an engine noise is very very difficult to diagnose.
The LT5 engine does make some normal clicking and clacking noises which often change as the engine warms up or as oil pressure builds up.
Place a stethoscope directly over the suspect lifters on the Camshaft Cover. A Lifter that does not pressure up especially when cold and after not being started for a while would be a major suspect given only three starts since January and the cold temperatures.

Piston slap does not sound like that.

Worst case and unlikely given the minimal starts and low mileage.....You could have dropped a valve (bent a valve) and I would do a Compression Check on ALL cylinders as one of the first and easiest tests.
I would then follow up with a Bore Scope inspection of any suspicious cylinder just to take a look for any damage. My friend and mentor from up North suggested last time he heard that clatter was when a screw had been dropped into a cylinder and I was thinking a dropped/bent valve would be about the same.

Does the sound change when the engine is at operating temperature......the answer is yes as I see above.

It also appears the noise could be from the area of the passenger side Camshaft chain/Camshaft Chain Guides/Tensioner?
That would however, be unlikely with such a low mileage engine.

It appears this engine noise started all at once and you are sure the LT5 did not sound like this only a few days ago?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B83...ew?usp=sharing

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Welcome aboard. I'm not far from you and can offer help for what it's worth. I've owned mine four 4 years, and am no stellar mechanic. But willing to lend a hand, or an ear. I've heard stories of more than one of these cars sold as junk 'cause the engine was ready to blow, only to find a bad flywheel, single mass flywheel, or bad injectors. -Steve

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Dumb question, how much oil did you put in when you changed the oil?

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Or "one of these cars" sold because the Transmission was ready to blow or the Clutch/Pressure Plate ready to blow only to find the Clutch Master Cylinder Reservoir empty with a bad Slave/Master Cylinder.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I forgot to mention that I did add about 1/2 quart of MMO to the fresh oil, and let the engine run for about 15 minutes on the most recent start. No change in the sound.

I've only started the car three times since I took delivery in early January. I do not remember hearing any unusual noises the first time, although I suppose it could have been present but quieter. The second time (about a week ago), it was as bad as it is now.

About 7 1/2 quarts, plus a half quart of MMO, plus maybe 1/2 pint in the oil filter, which I pre-filled before installing. I did not drain the oil cooler. I used inexpensive 10W30, as I never planed to have the car on the road before switching to Amsoil 10W30.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

wait 24 hr to check

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I slowed the video down to 50% speed & counted 40 noise events in 6 seconds, which translates to 400/min. A lifter or exhaust leak timing would equate to 800rpm, a normal for a cold start rpm after a few seconds.

Just my thoughts....
Considering your very cold ambient temperatures at start and the metallic sound I am leaning towards a collapsed lifter. Cold temps increase oil viscosity which in turn impedes oil flow. The orfices providing oil to each lifter are very small. At start up, with very cold oil, the engine could run for a short time with minimal oil pressure to the lifter itself. During this time, the lifter could "bleed down" from the pressure exerted during a valve opening sequence..

Watch the Cold Weather video at the bottom of the page & imagine non synthetic oil trying to flow through a pin hole size orfice to the lifter.

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-...n-cold-weather


LT5 engines have some unusual characteristics. Putting an engine back together without collapsing the lifters first, can result in valves being held open and no compression until it "bleeds down". So the simplest cure is to be sure all lifter are collapsed first. They will then "pump up" to the proper height for that particular valve stem & cam lobe.

Since the lifter noise started, I am assuming the engine has never actually warmed up.

If possible, you may consider going to a lighter viscosity (0-20), fully synthetic oil. Before draining the 10W30, non-synthetic oil currently in the engine, warm your garage up (or wait for spring) for an extended period to get the engine warm and let it drain for 24hrs before refilling with 0-20 synthetic.

After replacement with the low viscosity synthetic oil, the lifter may "pump up" again and it may not. Keep rpm low & allow engine temps to reach normal, but pay close attention to the noise. If it increases, shut it down.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I'd throw in the full quart of MMO, let run thru fan kick on. Shut it down. Start it up again once weather gets to 35-40F. I run 10W-40 in my car, but do not start it in winter until temps are at least above freezing and preferably ~40F+.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

BMWs had a big issue with this....some people found relief with 0-40 oil. With the low miles the lifters might be gummed up.


http://www.rtsauto.com/bmw-e90-valve...ter-ticknoise/

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

When I helped get Erik's 91 running again after 4 years of storage, it sounded bad and was running on 7 cylinders. After a 4 or 5 mile run down the road (with new oil of course) it was running on 8 and sounded fine. You may need to genuinely get the oil all the way to temp and at some rev to get the higher pressures if the lifters are in need of hydraulic priming.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Thanks everyone for your input. It sounds like my best course of action now is a combination of warmer weather, lower-viscosity oil, perhaps more Marvel, and longer runtime to really allow the oil to come up to temperature.

Sure enough, the oil temp gauge had just barely moved off its lower stop after 15+ minutes of idle in 30-35 degree ambient.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Best of luck with this issue. Hopefully it will resolve itself without requiring a teardown.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I always start my car in the winter if I am not driving it. Last start up was last weekend. Temp was at most 10°.

I always run mobile 1 full synthetic 5w 30.

After water temps reach 180° I usually hold the engine at 2000 RPMs until oil temp reaches 160+.

Hopefully a oil change and warmer weather will help solve your problem.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

My engine makes this noise too. I assumed that it was the tensioner. Or at least hoped that was the cause. I really hope it's not the timing chain. Maybe we have different causes of the noise.

I have a very rough running engine and that may or may not be related. I was thinking the rough running and the Goodyear belt being long contribute to the tensioner making a clacking sound.

When I increase the rpm a little, the noise goes away.

The noise also goes away if I turn off the air conditioner. I don't think the noise is the air conditioner though. I think taking the load off the engine helps it run a little smoother.

I can't hear the noise while driving. I can only hear the rough running engine.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

A rough running....and rough idling engine noise would probably be dual mass flywheel noise. But you can definitely here where that is coming from. The rough running would probably be caused by poor injectors assuming you have good plugs, coils and not running on a dead cylinder.

Does your engine make more noise on one side or other?

It is hard to believe that a lifter would not pump up after 15 minutes.....or even 15 seconds no matter what oil you used. I assume the oil pressure comes right up within 3 or 4 seconds after start and is probably near 75 lbs? An ambient temperatures of 30 deg is not all that cold. I have started engines (not LT5s) at zero with 10W-30 Penzoil. After 15 minutes of idle the engine should be near 180 deg F even in 30 deg ambient temperatures. The thermostat will just not open as far in cold ambient temperatures.

A collapsed lifter is one that has excessive (very excessive) leak down as all lifters will collapse (leak down) after sitting for hours or days.
In other words....excessive internal plunger wear would have caused the excessive leak down of the lifter and unusual for a low mileage engine. A lifter that has clogged oil ports would not pump up and essentially be a collapsed lifter.

The oil will remain cooler given the oil pan and bottom of the engine is not cooled by coolant but by air flow and outside air temperates (assuming the oil cooler flow is zero at those temperatures). Oil flow is about 1.5 gpm at idle so would take about 2 minutes for oil to completely circulate giving a 2 minute cooling off period once back in the cool oil pan.

On Wed Mar 4th the high will be 3 deg F and low will be -12 deg F. In those temperatures would have to turn on Good Ole Val6 diesel Infrared 112,000 BTU Heater :D

I would do a compression test because it is such an easy test and only takes a few minutes just in case there is something going on with the valves, pistons.

Keep us posted on what is determined to be the cause of this clatter on the LT5 engines. Good information for everybody :handshak:

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Here is a bigger question: Is it always the same lifters that tend to tick...is there something in the head design that oil starves one or two lifters more?

I was thinking about this as I was looking at Jeal cam failures...is it always the same lobe?

Additionally the motor in #966 had a lifter tick and when I swapped in #702...same result...lifter tick.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I resemble that remark! Me too on all counts, except our Z has been ours (really my wife's) for a bit longer. I do have a cheapie contact stethescope (ok, how do you spell that) if that'd be helpful.

Jerry's done some good sleuthing to match it to idle speed, rules out the cam timing stuff. I can't really listen to it but another possibility could be an exhaust valve seat problem. If you do compression test don't stop there - do a leakdown too.

Best of luck and happy to help however I can,
- Jeff

Dual-mass attempting to compensate for
 

injectors sounds very scary...I loaded up mine a few years back and took it ot Marc for new Accels...I was actually relieved that it wasn't what it sounded like...a spun main or rod bearing...first ocurred on a slow drive about town..

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I have had a bad flywheel before and the sound is different. My noise sounds similar to what cmb is experiencing. It comes from the front passenger side.

I did have 2 wires with high resistance so I reinstalled the original wires and coils which were working fine when I removed them. I also replaced the plugs and injectors since the injectors were the originals anyway. There was no change in how the car runs.

I checked the function of the throttle position sensor with a Tech 1A and it appears to be functioning normally.

I guess I have to go look for my compression tester. It may be tricky trying to get it attached in the deep spark plug holes.

I just tried pushing down hard on the tensioner with a stick and the sound goes away. I'm thinking the long Goodyear belt allowing the tensioner to unwind too much together with the rough running causes the tensioner to make noises.

I have a new tensioner to try out but removing the old one seems impossible with the air-conditioning pipe in the way.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I had this EXACT same noise on startup just a few weeks ago, My car was down for 5-6 months since end of july and I did work plus had my top end sent out. I had this EXACT clatter. I have some vids but Im at work and I can upload them and post when im at home on wifi.

Long story short.. idled for a few mins.. gave a tiny bit of rpm to increase oil pressure.. clacking tapered down and then disappeared. A little bit of run time later it was breaking new acceleration numbers on the g-tech ;)

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I've had a very similar thing happen where I have a loud tick when motor is cold and it starts to dissipate as engine warms up until it disappears. Typically it shows up on the passenger side for some unknown reason.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I am surprised more of you guys do not have some piston slap noise on those cold mornings.
I think I have just a bit of piston slap on a 1990 LT5 which goes away quickly as engine warms up.
I have had piston slap on a Toyota 4x4 for the last 200,000 miles :D

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Cliff,

As I had posted earlier, I don"t start my car in the winter unless temps are above freezing and preferably >40F. Looks like may I may have a chance to do that later this week.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I don't start my cars through the winter. Just kills the oil in my opinion. I check the oil in my vw (07 Passat wagon with a oil guzzling 2.0t) every few days and there is ice buildup every time on my dipstick tube and oil cap because of the cold and moisture/freezing every day. Ill post a vid later tonight.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Anyone know if the lifters are from a different manufacturer on the later year engines?

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Colin
Sounds like the right side chain tensioner has locked up.

Take the tensioner out if it does not come apart it's stuck,you will need new tensioner.

Since it's right side it's somewhat easy to check/take out.
Pete

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Colin,

I made a couple of videos of my engine noise and how it stops if I push down on the belt tensioner or turn off the air conditioner. If you give me your email address, I can send them to you.

Or if someone else can post the videos, I can email them the videos. That way others can listen an see if it sounds like the same problem.

They are large files so I don't know if that's a problem for email.

Myles

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

Let me also add could be broken chain guide.
If chain guide broke/bad i would not run it anymore, have it checked,take valve/cam cover off, with the cover off you'll be able to check guides and chain tensioner i will tell you how once you have cover off.

That is not lifter tick/noise last time i heard noise like that it was tensioner locked up does not happen often.

Pete

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I was thinking chain/chain guide possible issue also but then Jerry counted 400/min.....which each side has different chain length and if chain had issues or guide would not be 400/min. Only 26K mile engine also suggests chain guides would be hardly worn in.

Just seems like lifter/valve issue.

Compression Check.....
Remove Serpentine Belt eliminating all other front end possibilities excluding Chain/Chain Guides.
Then Cam Cover removal like Pete suggests and with Pete's help in that diagnosis to check Timing Chain/Chain Guides as well as Lifters, Valves.

Re: Top end clatter / lifter tick?
 

I don't know the history of the car but if the cam covers were removed for powder coating they had to remove chain guide
Maybe they hurt the chain guide.
I'm just going by the sound.
I also considered water pump but he is saying sound is coming from #2 cylinder
And sounds like it is.
Pete