ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Alright.

I know there is the chance of having the ECM Repaired, if not there is a MegaSquirt variation, although every time I inquire for a price I hear crickets..

So is there going to be a megasquirt variation, with it what do you lose?

What about the Ignition module, What happens when they break? Where is the option for replacement?

Has the the registry thought about sponsoring or helping sponsor for the creation or recreation of this part. That is truly one of the major components that if we cannot get a replacement our motors become boat anchors..

thoughts?

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

brought this up 3 years ago
no interest

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread....ht=development

I just talked to someone who does ignition module rebuilds on mercedes....gave me a company to call

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

I thought I had an email that mentioned the MS3-Pro (Megasquirt) price, but I can't find it. It was around $2,000.

I have it in my car and like it. The only missing functionality I've noticed is the MPG dash display.

I'm a bit ignorant about the ignition module. I'm assuming the MS3-Pro in my car is working in conjunction with the stock ignition parts.

Having the Registry work with DIY Tune for better prices is a great idea. I know the guys started the LT5 ECU because they think there's a potential market. They are also working with Graham at Lingenfelter, which is encouraging, and might help tackle the dash integration eventually.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

I don't believe the MS solution includes replacing the IM. In speaking to Graham, he thought the current ignition was more than adequate, although I have always thought it to be an extremely critical and irreplaceable piece. I'd like to see an alternative developed that takes advantage of the current CnP technology.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

That is sad that there was no interest for that.

While the IM might be Adequate.. what happens when/if these start to fail?

That is more the concern of mine

Russ, I know you mentioned price, i email ed them too.. I honestly doubt it is on their website yet and I emailed months ago for info

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

I would be happy to see at a minimum a direct replacement DIS module that at least replaces the existing DIS Module. Truth be told folks if your DIS goes bad and you cant source a replacement you car is truly a paperweight. It would be great if the registry could support somebody taking on this project. The good news is the DIS truth be told has been pretty resilient hanging out under the plenum the past 26-27 years. I don't know where the break point is. A lot of us don't want to find out. Same goes for the ECM if its not rebuildable.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

I have been dealing with older FI cars for some time now. What I have noticed is usually Cold Solder joints fail or capacitors/transistors die. Anyone who had an older TV back before they were really cheap may remember the TV repair man. They were good at working on small electronics and replacing these critical electrical components.

What we need to find an old DIS and send it off to an ECM rebuilder to see if it can be re-furbed. Such as redoing all the solder joints and replacing any questionable components. I had old TV repair shops do this for me in the past with great success.

Can anyone tell me exactly what the DIS does? Does the ECM not send any type of signal to the coils?

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

The DIS (Ignition) Module is no small project. I have been working on a replacement for well over a year now and still actively pursuing the project.

The electronics are imbedded in epoxy, making access & repair of electronic components impractical.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...psg6a3q2ra.jpg
Add to that, the program stored in the ROM chip cannot be read & code is unknown.

The "replacement" will be plug & play into the engine harness, although the electrionic connections may be wire leads from the module to the connector instead of the present one-piece mold for all 4 connectors. It will require utilization of the aluminum mounting plate from the original DIS module.

As for the development cost, I expect it to exceed $35,000.00 to produce beta test samples. Development will include actual engine dyno sessions before releasing the beta modules.

I hadn't planned on releasing this info because ultimate unit costs, delivery schedule, etc. are not known and always have hiccups along the way, but I couldn't ignore the concern for the future of our ZR-1's.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Jerry, That is awesome that you are pursuing this. I am glad that this piece could potentially be made available. I understand it is a costly and lengthy project..

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

The quest for both of these modules is a worthy endeavor, for sure! In fact, it has been kicking around for quite a while - and monitoring MS has been keenly observed.

The DIS module is critically important; made more so by limited availability of spares, and (frankly) Graham is and we're all aware of that.

I believe a Registry endeavor to resolve the availability of these critical parts is well within the purview of "Keeping The Legend Alive". At present, the club hasn't got an R&D entity or committee to address critical components. Maybe it is high time the Club should consider one? After all, these critical items aren't getting any more available with the passing years, right?

We're a NON-PROFIT organization. At the moment, the Registry budget (available to inspect by all club members on the Members Only site) is essentially balanced between dues and outlay for everything the Registry does (e.g., organizing local and regional gatherings, the FORUM licensing and maintenance, membership perks, etc.). We have to operate within the non-profit rules for tax exemption purposes.

NOT that we "can't" embark on a quest to resolve/develop (these) parts, and I believe maybe the Club should. But, we have to secure resources (people and $$$) to head up the development w/o nullifying our tax-exempt status; e.g., agreeing as a club to increase dues to fund efforts to procure say an outside source for the DIS module.

Having been involved in R&D (in a previous life), I have some ideas on some of the key points of such an endeavor, and I think the Club would benefit greatly by tapping into the enormous talent held by certain members of the organization, as well as others (e.g., Jerry) who may have already embarked on "the quest".

Discussion, pro-con, is welcome and healthy and certainly germane to the preservation of our cars . But, before volunteering "somebody or the BOD", understand it is going to require the commitment of tremendous time and effort and talent to guide the process through. And, to keep us out of legal trouble (taxes for one thing) certain steps will have to be considered and taken before any $$ collected or is diverted to the effort.

Note: Anything I've said here is w/o intent of malice, and I don't believe I have over-stepped any rules of decorum, far as being a member of the BOD goes, as it pertains to simply opening a discussing at this point. But, any Registry sanctioned/funded efforts (business) of this sort will have to be done with direct BOD involvement to assure we remain w/in legal (tax exempt) and by-laws guide lines. Independent persons/group efforts NOT entangling the Club in any way are not withstanding, of course.

:cheers:

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Damn Jerry!!! This is Awesome news and Scary news at the same time. Especially the reverse engineering aspect. I will venture to guess the Epoxy that covers these units is the reason the electronics have survived the heat for so long!!!

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

The scary part is, I am sure, is your concern for the ultimate cost per module. For most businesses, there are certain economic parameters, ROI, Payout, Rate of Return, and amortization of capital costs. Jerrys Gaskets is not a typical business. I can allow all of the other products to carry those parameters to keep the retail price in line, i.e. a price that will keep the ZR-1 LT5 alive.

I like to think of it as a joint effort...... All of the support that Jerrys Gaskets has received over the last 8 years, has enabled the development and manufacture of many different parts that became extinct.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Billy DIS is an Acronym (Distributerless Ignition System) This is the LT5s electronic Distributer that is pancaked on the underside of the Plenum. If it dies. Your done.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Jerry the Mercedes Ignition Transformer is repairable and its in the same Epoxy.....

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

;) and then... there is the code issue.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

So only scavenging from a dead unit and transplants are the only way forward for now. My kingdom for lack of a horseshoe mail comes to mind. I wonder why that chip cant be read.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Well, we could make new aluminum bases for each unit, but it just adds bucks to the cost.. The base will be optional as some yet-to-be-determined price.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

So there is no other way to drive the ignition?

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Jerry,

Giving any consideration to driving individual cylinder coils?

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Dom,

I am a big fan of the cylinder coils, but my agenda for Jerrys Gaskets is to fill the parts vacuum with direct replacement parts that require no modifications and perform exactly as stock. By far, the bulk of my customers are only interested in keeping the ZR-1 running, in stock condition. You know me though.... personally I am a mod addict. So much so, my ZR-1 isn't really a go for a Sunday afternoon drive..... on public roads anyway;)

Sure there is, just requires a different system (aftermarket) that requires modifications and non-stock appearance.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

I work for a company, that designs and produces printed circuit boards. After seeing that picture of the DIS module made me think. Could it be redesigned to modern specs? I know nothing about electronics, I'm just the inventory manager. But I honestly think it could made new. But just as someone said, it would be expensive......Maybe a group fund or something to pay for the design and production / testing? We do all of our design, engineering, production and testing in house. As far as I know we are one of the few places in the country that makes certain embedded, and printed boards.

Lol I'm not hocking where I work, but here is our website............

http://www.emacinc.com/

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Hi Jerry,

What Aftermarket systems are good for use with the LT5? I assume the Megasquirt will work with an external trigger wheel. I am curious of all the options currently

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Jeff,

Others here can answer "all the options currently" question better than I can. I think all aftermarket units will probably require a trigger wheel different than the reluctor wheel on the LT5 crank.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Fair enough.. I knew it would require an external trigger wheel

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Megasquirt does not require any external trigger, it will work with the 9x 1x stock LT5 configuration. There are other issues though.

GB

ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Still using stock Ignition module? Or is it built in to the mega squirt ECM


What are the other issues?

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Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Still using stock ign module, sees it as a single HEI coil. Problems with serial data coms to vehicle dash CCM etc.

Graham.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Ah thanks for clarification


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Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

So this still is a major concern.. Do we know how many Ignition Modules have failed? If mine fails, my car would become a big paper weight. If there are other avenues for ignition they need to be explored..

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

I seriously doubt that anyone will lay down the money required to remake this item. Even if you could sell them for 1200 dollars, the going price of a NOS DIS module, you're going to sell maybe 10 when they first become available, then maybe 1 a year. That would never justify the cost to have it remade. You would lose tens of thousands of dollars on the project.

There will probably be a work around with other factory parts in the future, but not until there is zero availability of the original modules.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Right, that is what I meant about other avenues..

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

I am actually engaged in producing the DIS Module right now.


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Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Just out of curiosity, but how many do you think you'll sell? I realize you can spread the development cost over the profit on some of your other parts, but it seems that it would still be cost prohibitive. From the standpoint of a manufacturing engineer anyway :)

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

It is cost prohibitive from any view point that requires justification, using an economic model that includes profit. Jerrys Gaskets moved into the realm of parts that make no economic sense using the common yardsticks, Payout (PO), Rate of Return (ROR & IRR), Return on Investment (ROI), etc., a few years back.

For example, in order to attract a qualified injection molding company that could perform laser scan to CAD to CNC and produce very tight tolerance parts from high shrink material, we had to be willing to manufacture 2000 of each of the six different chain guide facings. We accomplished that to supply facings some of which were not available from any readily available source. Needless to say, my grand children will be passing inventory down to their kids.

If it weren't for the ZR-1 Net Registry allowing me to use the Forum, the support from both Registry members and Forum members, patronizing & referring Jerrys Gaskets, the availability of parts might be different today.

Due to that support, to date we have purchased tooling and manufactured;
20 different gaskets
Valve Spring Seats, 4140ht
Chain Guide Access Plugs
Cam Sprocket Bolts (reuseable ARP, special order)
MAP Sensor Hoses
Dipstick Tube Seals
Crankcase Ventilation PCV Hoses (L & R)
Chain Guide Facings (all 5 different)
Cam Cover R&R Plugs
Cam Cover Fresh Air Vent Hose
Vacuum Connector (unique to 1990 only)
Dual PCV Hose, Lower
Dual PCV Hose, Top Connector
Connecting Rod Bolts (ARP special order)
Silicone Coolant Hose Set (un-branded, black, red & blue)
Main Bearings, std & 0.0005" oversize, KING Alecular
RH Secondary Cam Chain Tensioner Housing (GM second design)
Silicone Air Duct (black, red & blue)
Fuel Injector Electrical Connector Seal
Idle Air Control Valve Motor
Fuel Pressure Regulator Vacuum Hose
Oil Pump Suction Seal (93~95 models)
Oil Cooler Hoses, (manufactured in-house using Edelbrock/Russell components)

and

LT5 ATI Damper, made available & in stock after it was discontinued
Valve Stem Seals, developed aftermarket source & stock
Valve Spring Retainer Key, developed aftermarket source & stock
PermaBond A136, made available & in stock after it was discontinued
Oil Pump Carbon Seal, OEM NOS, located & acquired manufacturer overrun
Seals (all) reverse engineered from engine dimensions & application verified

and
acquired several different inventories of LT5 parts which made them more readily available from a single, easily accessible source.

Still working on more LT5 projects
DIS Module
and other parts yet to come :)

All made possible by the support of the ZR-1 community.

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

... and secondary cam chains... ;)

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

I am trying as best I can to keep your inventory moving :p
Same with Carter.....I am trying as best I can to keep his machining work moving ;)

And......both of you are top of the line...........quality, shipping, and prices are very reasonable....
Thank You :thumbsup:

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Jerry,

Would love to hear more n what the functional specs are for the DIS module.
Will it use the existing 9 slot reluctor? Any possibility it will allow use of CnP?
Integrate w OEM ECM?

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

The objective is to produce a direct replacement of the original module. Will plug into the harness with no modification and utilize the aluminum base from the original module to keep cost down. Will probably make some new bases though. We will see how it goes.


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Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

I hear you.. you have to walk before you can run.. Glad to see this is heading somewhere.. makes me more comfortable to hang on to my Z

Re: ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement
 

Just one thing to say:
Jerry, you ROCK!
Thank you!

Wait, is that two things?