Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? - Page 3 - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

tomtom72 · 04-05-2008

I'd just like to thank you for adding your knowledge to this transmission thread!

As an aside, I would beg your indulgence if I might ask a few questions of interest to me a 90 Z owner about the speed sensor.

Is that the part that is often referred to as a VSS in the Helm manual?

The 90 VSS is a 90 only part, right?

And it's NLA from GM?

Do you think that your source could get any more?

Sorry for all the Q's.

TIA

Tom

WVZR-1 · 04-05-2008

Tom,

I based my thoughts regarding the VSS on the fact that a '90 car shares the CCM/BCM with an '89 car and I thought those early TPI cars were 2000 pulse. The CCM/BCM changed in '91 along with the VSS's and those I believe are 4000.
The VSS I received from Vauxhall was the only available and I believe the fellow worked hard trying to find me another one or two. I didn't need it but purchased as spare.
Something just came to mind and I mean "just", usually the speedometer looks for the signal from the ECM with most early GM cars. Maybe the speedometer might see a 4000 pulse but I expect the CCM/BCM still wants to see something else for the odometer. I sure don't know but I'll stick with my thoughts for now!

-Dave

tomtom72 · 04-05-2008

Thank you Dave for your sharing of all this info. I'm not fluent enough yet in all this electronic stuff to actually grasp what you are explaining. Beyond the central idea that there was a change made, and that the 90 VSS is specific to the 90's car.

I suppose that if a 90 vss went bad you would be at the mercy of the aftermarket. I recall trying to buy one as a spare from my local chevy dealer and they said it was nla.

Thanks again for your sharing the light!

Tom

tccrab · 04-05-2008

Wow.
From all this talk about the speed sensor, it looks like I did the exact right thing (by accident) by replacing the speed sensor in the 540Nm blue tag with the one out of my '90's 610Nm black tag. This would explain why the plug was different.

I had called a certain ZF6 Doc about that different plug and he told me I could order a plug or a harness from GM. He didn't mention that the newer style speed sensor wouldn't work in my '90.

All of this info is *really good*, it should be saved somewhere over on the Registry Site, maybe in the Technical stuff?
ZF-Factor? Could you cut and paste this stuff and add it to the FAQ's or somewhere?

tomtom72 · 04-06-2008

Hi Tom,

I figure your idea about a "reference" thread is great. That's why I posted what I've heard about the things that affect our transmissions. I figure if we get enough participation we can collect a nice bit of knowledge and then edit it to make sure we have all solid info, bassed in fact & not rumor. We should add in a solid "how to", and then condense it and save it as reference material?

JMHO

Tom

tccrab · 04-07-2008

Chapter 2

Removing the ZF6 at home...

Let’s start at the beginning.
A few months after buying “Girlfriend” I made a rude discovery during my first attempt at power shifting into second gear.
Wide straight open country road, nobody around for miles, I hear myself saying “Let’s see what she’s made of”.

I launch at around 2500rpms, my BFG F1’s let loose and then start to grab. I distinctly remember thinking to myself, “Well, there goes $20 worth of tire”.

When the tach needle goes nearly vertical, I grab the shifter, lift my right foot slightly, jab my left foot down and pull hard on the shift knob. I feel the shifter slip out of first and then almost hesitate as it seems to hit something as it tries to go into second. My right hand vibrates and I hear a loud grinding noise. I panic, lift the gas pedal and try to stick it into third.
It won’t go. The shifter feels “slushy”, the gears don’t want to engage.
I wiggle the shifter, push the clutch in a few times and finally it goes into third.
After I get home I call Bill Boudreau, ask him if I “Screwed the Pooch”. He tells me it will need ‘fixin but if I treat it right and don’t bang second gear it will probably last a little while longer.
Fast forward four years. A beautiful sunny Sunday. Wifey and I take “Girlfriend” out for a drive. We spend a couple hours cuisin, enjoying the early spring. The secondaries never open the entire drive (wifey… well you know…).

We’re stopped at the stop sign just down the street from the house. I push in the clutch and…
It won’t go into first gear. The shifter feels “slushy”. It almost seemed like something is in the way preventing me from engaging first gear. I try second gear, same thing.
Crap.

I run it through the gears, clutch it a few times, and then in frustration just jam it into first with a loud “Clunk”. I limp down the block in first gear and carefully pull it up into the garage.
A little while later I go to push it forward in the garage so that I can get it up on Jack Stands. I put the shifter in neutral and release the parking brake. I shove on the side of the car.
The car does not move.
I rock the car back and forth and I can feel that the car is still in gear.
I recheck the shifter. It’s in neutral. The transmission however, is still in gear. I’m able to get it out of gear later by shifting through all the gears, banging on it and cussing.
Up on Jack Stands she goes.

I get on the phone, call up JeffVette. I ask him, is this something I can do at home? I can still hear him laughing. He tells me that he's doing a transmission a few weeks later and if I trailer it up to him, he'll do it for me. An intriguing offer, I must admit, especially after laying under the car and asking myself if I was nuts for even thinking about doing this at home.
But, hey, what the heck. I'm an idiot, and I've got tools. (hey, that sounds like something "Tim the Tool Man Taylor" would say).

To be continued…
Chapter 3.
Removing the ZF6 at home, or...
How do I get the sardines out of the can without ruining the can?

tf95ZR1 · 04-08-2008

Hey Tom!
I did the same thing at home. With car on jackstands, I removed the ZF6.
My biggest surprise was how darn heavy the trans was! Be careful!
Good Luck,
Ted

Jagdpanzer · 10-10-2008

TomC
Where is chapter 3??

tccrab · 10-11-2008

Chapter 3.
How do they put so many sardines in such a small can????

The car needs to be at least 18 inches off the ground either on a lift or with jack stands under the 4 corners.
Getting your Z off the ground is a lot harder than it sounds. The front end is too low for a standard floor jack to fit under, and there really isn’t anywhere under the back to lift the car with a standard floor jack.
I bought a nice expensive pair of ramps to drive the front of the car onto, but couldn’t use them because they slipped on my epoxy painted garage floor.
I made my own ramps by cutting up some old 2x6’s into three pieces, 24 inches, 18 inches and 12 inches and screwing them together with wood screws. Driving the front wheels up onto them gave me enough clearance to fit my floor jack under the front of the car. I jacked up the front end high enough to get tall jack stands under the lift points just behind the front wheels.
The rear end was more of a challenge, there’s really no place to put a standard floor jack onto the rear end and no place on the frame that’s readily accessible. My neighbor welded me up a piece that fit into where the cup on my floor jack would normally be that fit under the pumpkin. A ZR1 looks funny when it’s 24 inches off the ground. It also looks very unsafe. The best place to put jack stands are the lifting points just in front the rear wheels.

-disconnect negative battery cable
-put shifter into 3rd gear
-remove shift knob (this is a lot tougher than it sounds, see Appendix A)
-remove console top & shift boot
-release parking brake
-remove exhaust
-drain transmission oil
-support engine with separate jack (I used a Â¾ inch thick piece of plywood to distribute the weight across the entire oil pan)
-support transmission with separate jack ( I fabbed up trans cradle out of a Â¾ inch piece of plywood and some 1x2 wood pieces)
-remove c-beam bolts (See Appendix B)

-remove clutch slave unit, carefully tuck it out of the way where it won't be banged around.
-remove c-beam e-brake wire clip at rear of c-beam
-slide c-beam forward until you just clear the e-brake cable in the back, lower transmission/engine so that you can slide the c-beam back and down, there will be a lot of pushing and shoving, grunting and groaning, but it will come out.

-remove u-joint bolts; mark u-joint caps and bolts so as to put them back in exact same place (I used white out and felt tipped marker)
-remove drive shaft taking care not to dislodge u-joint end caps (I put a piece of duct tape around the entire u-joint to keep them in place)
-remove speed sensor, backup light & CAGS plug and tuck wiring out of the way
-unbolt transmission; leave two bolts in finger tight
-let engine down until the shifter just clears the opening
-remove last two transmission bolts while holding transmission in place
-Carefully slide transmission out; do not pry between trans and bell housing, you do not want to mar the surface between them.
-unbolt cat shields from sides of bell housing
-unbolt front inspection plate
-remove shift fork ball cover (reverse thread)
-loosen ball (reverse thread)
-wiggle shift fork back and off of throw out bearing
-unbolt and remove bell housing
-mark pressure plate and flywheel to make sure you get it back in the exact same place
-unbolt and remove pressure plate
-inspect/replace pilot busing as necessary
-Clean and inspect pressure plate & flywheel

Now you’re ready to reinstall the transmission. Just reverse the process and you’re good to go.

Appendix A.
The stupid !@#%^$#& shift knob
Gently pry the shift pattern insert out of the shift knob. A small screwdriver does nicely. You can put a piece of tape on the edge of the leather to keep the screwdriver from marring the leather (thanks to Johnny Phrogs for the pics)

Now comes the fun part.
There’s a metal wedging key that locks the knob to the shifter that has to come out before you can unscrew the knob. In the next picture you can see that Johnny used a pair of pliers to grab the thing and yank it out.
It looks deceptively simple, but it isn’t.

I gave up on the pliers and started hunting for something that I could wedge under the edge and pry it up.
Inspiration hit and I found some roofing nails. The head on a roofing nail is very thin and is very strong. I slid the nail head under the edge and gently rocked the wedging key.
Up it came.

Appendix B:
C-Beam Bolts
It is a major PITA to get a wrench on the c-beam nuts on the transmission end. There is absolutely no room to get your hand up and over the c-beam and transmission. Everything must be done by feel.
My hat is off to anyone who put the original nuts back on the c-beam bolts.
I highly recommend Bill Boudreau’s (the ZF Doc) “C-Beam Plates” they make the job a lot easier.

There is a really nice write up on them over at the Corvette Action Center:
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...php/product/27
Bill has a very nice write up on transmission removal on his site:
http://www.zfdoc.com/transmission.htm
TomC
"Crabs"

flyin ryan · 10-12-2008

i've just recently pulled the ZF out of my Ruby Zee. wasn't that bad, went pretty smooth & quick

04-05-2008	#21
tomtom72 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL USA Posts: 4,645	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? I'd just like to thank you for adding your knowledge to this transmission thread! As an aside, I would beg your indulgence if I might ask a few questions of interest to me a 90 Z owner about the speed sensor. Is that the part that is often referred to as a VSS in the Helm manual? The 90 VSS is a 90 only part, right? And it's NLA from GM? Do you think that your source could get any more? Sorry for all the Q's. TIA Tom __________________ 1990 ZR-1, Black/grey, #2233, stock. ZR-1 Net Reg Founding Member #316 & NCM member

04-05-2008	#22
WVZR-1 Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,889	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? Tom, I based my thoughts regarding the VSS on the fact that a '90 car shares the CCM/BCM with an '89 car and I thought those early TPI cars were 2000 pulse. The CCM/BCM changed in '91 along with the VSS's and those I believe are 4000. The VSS I received from Vauxhall was the only available and I believe the fellow worked hard trying to find me another one or two. I didn't need it but purchased as spare. Something just came to mind and I mean "just", usually the speedometer looks for the signal from the ECM with most early GM cars. Maybe the speedometer might see a 4000 pulse but I expect the CCM/BCM still wants to see something else for the odometer. I sure don't know but I'll stick with my thoughts for now! -Dave

04-05-2008	#23
tomtom72 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL USA Posts: 4,645	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? Thank you Dave for your sharing of all this info. I'm not fluent enough yet in all this electronic stuff to actually grasp what you are explaining. Beyond the central idea that there was a change made, and that the 90 VSS is specific to the 90's car. I suppose that if a 90 vss went bad you would be at the mercy of the aftermarket. I recall trying to buy one as a spare from my local chevy dealer and they said it was nla. Thanks again for your sharing the light! Tom __________________ 1990 ZR-1, Black/grey, #2233, stock. ZR-1 Net Reg Founding Member #316 & NCM member

04-05-2008	#24
tccrab Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Folsom CA Posts: 1,643	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? Wow. From all this talk about the speed sensor, it looks like I did the exact right thing (by accident) by replacing the speed sensor in the 540Nm blue tag with the one out of my '90's 610Nm black tag. This would explain why the plug was different. I had called a certain ZF6 Doc about that different plug and he told me I could order a plug or a harness from GM. He didn't mention that the newer style speed sensor wouldn't work in my '90. All of this info is really good, it should be saved somewhere over on the Registry Site, maybe in the Technical stuff? ZF-Factor? Could you cut and paste this stuff and add it to the FAQ's or somewhere? __________________ TomC '90ZR1 #792 Honorary Pirate [B]If it ain't FUN, you're doing something terribly WRONG. [/B]

04-06-2008	#25
tomtom72 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL USA Posts: 4,645	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? Hi Tom, I figure your idea about a "reference" thread is great. That's why I posted what I've heard about the things that affect our transmissions. I figure if we get enough participation we can collect a nice bit of knowledge and then edit it to make sure we have all solid info, bassed in fact & not rumor. We should add in a solid "how to", and then condense it and save it as reference material? JMHO Tom __________________ 1990 ZR-1, Black/grey, #2233, stock. ZR-1 Net Reg Founding Member #316 & NCM member

04-07-2008	#26
tccrab Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Folsom CA Posts: 1,643	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? Chapter 2 Removing the ZF6 at home... Let’s start at the beginning. A few months after buying “Girlfriend” I made a rude discovery during my first attempt at power shifting into second gear. Wide straight open country road, nobody around for miles, I hear myself saying “Let’s see what she’s made of”. I launch at around 2500rpms, my BFG F1’s let loose and then start to grab. I distinctly remember thinking to myself, “Well, there goes $20 worth of tire”. When the tach needle goes nearly vertical, I grab the shifter, lift my right foot slightly, jab my left foot down and pull hard on the shift knob. I feel the shifter slip out of first and then almost hesitate as it seems to hit something as it tries to go into second. My right hand vibrates and I hear a loud grinding noise. I panic, lift the gas pedal and try to stick it into third. It won’t go. The shifter feels “slushy”, the gears don’t want to engage. I wiggle the shifter, push the clutch in a few times and finally it goes into third. After I get home I call Bill Boudreau, ask him if I “Screwed the Pooch”. He tells me it will need ‘fixin but if I treat it right and don’t bang second gear it will probably last a little while longer. Fast forward four years. A beautiful sunny Sunday. Wifey and I take “Girlfriend” out for a drive. We spend a couple hours cuisin, enjoying the early spring. The secondaries never open the entire drive (wifey… well you know…). We’re stopped at the stop sign just down the street from the house. I push in the clutch and… It won’t go into first gear. The shifter feels “slushy”. It almost seemed like something is in the way preventing me from engaging first gear. I try second gear, same thing. Crap. I run it through the gears, clutch it a few times, and then in frustration just jam it into first with a loud “Clunk”. I limp down the block in first gear and carefully pull it up into the garage. A little while later I go to push it forward in the garage so that I can get it up on Jack Stands. I put the shifter in neutral and release the parking brake. I shove on the side of the car. The car does not move. I rock the car back and forth and I can feel that the car is still in gear. I recheck the shifter. It’s in neutral. The transmission however, is still in gear. I’m able to get it out of gear later by shifting through all the gears, banging on it and cussing. Up on Jack Stands she goes. I get on the phone, call up JeffVette. I ask him, is this something I can do at home? I can still hear him laughing. He tells me that he's doing a transmission a few weeks later and if I trailer it up to him, he'll do it for me. An intriguing offer, I must admit, especially after laying under the car and asking myself if I was nuts for even thinking about doing this at home. But, hey, what the heck. I'm an idiot, and I've got tools. (hey, that sounds like something "Tim the Tool Man Taylor" would say). To be continued… Chapter 3. Removing the ZF6 at home, or... How do I get the sardines out of the can without ruining the can? __________________ TomC '90ZR1 #792 Honorary Pirate [B]If it ain't FUN, you're doing something terribly WRONG. [/B] Last edited by tccrab; 04-07-2008 at 09:15 PM.

04-08-2008	#27
tf95ZR1 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Northridge, CA Posts: 1,445	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? Hey Tom! I did the same thing at home. With car on jackstands, I removed the ZF6. My biggest surprise was how darn heavy the trans was! Be careful! Good Luck, Ted

10-10-2008	#28
Jagdpanzer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Northern VA Posts: 2,644	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? TomC Where is chapter 3??

10-11-2008	#29
tccrab Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Folsom CA Posts: 1,643	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? Chapter 3. How do they put so many sardines in such a small can???? The car needs to be at least 18 inches off the ground either on a lift or with jack stands under the 4 corners. Getting your Z off the ground is a lot harder than it sounds. The front end is too low for a standard floor jack to fit under, and there really isn’t anywhere under the back to lift the car with a standard floor jack. I bought a nice expensive pair of ramps to drive the front of the car onto, but couldn’t use them because they slipped on my epoxy painted garage floor. I made my own ramps by cutting up some old 2x6’s into three pieces, 24 inches, 18 inches and 12 inches and screwing them together with wood screws. Driving the front wheels up onto them gave me enough clearance to fit my floor jack under the front of the car. I jacked up the front end high enough to get tall jack stands under the lift points just behind the front wheels. The rear end was more of a challenge, there’s really no place to put a standard floor jack onto the rear end and no place on the frame that’s readily accessible. My neighbor welded me up a piece that fit into where the cup on my floor jack would normally be that fit under the pumpkin. A ZR1 looks funny when it’s 24 inches off the ground. It also looks very unsafe. The best place to put jack stands are the lifting points just in front the rear wheels. -disconnect negative battery cable -put shifter into 3rd gear -remove shift knob (this is a lot tougher than it sounds, see Appendix A) -remove console top & shift boot -release parking brake -remove exhaust -drain transmission oil -support engine with separate jack (I used a Â¾ inch thick piece of plywood to distribute the weight across the entire oil pan) -support transmission with separate jack ( I fabbed up trans cradle out of a Â¾ inch piece of plywood and some 1x2 wood pieces) -remove c-beam bolts (See Appendix B) -remove clutch slave unit, carefully tuck it out of the way where it won't be banged around. -remove c-beam e-brake wire clip at rear of c-beam -slide c-beam forward until you just clear the e-brake cable in the back, lower transmission/engine so that you can slide the c-beam back and down, there will be a lot of pushing and shoving, grunting and groaning, but it will come out. -remove u-joint bolts; mark u-joint caps and bolts so as to put them back in exact same place (I used white out and felt tipped marker) -remove drive shaft taking care not to dislodge u-joint end caps (I put a piece of duct tape around the entire u-joint to keep them in place) -remove speed sensor, backup light & CAGS plug and tuck wiring out of the way -unbolt transmission; leave two bolts in finger tight -let engine down until the shifter just clears the opening -remove last two transmission bolts while holding transmission in place -Carefully slide transmission out; do not pry between trans and bell housing, you do not want to mar the surface between them. -unbolt cat shields from sides of bell housing -unbolt front inspection plate -remove shift fork ball cover (reverse thread) -loosen ball (reverse thread) -wiggle shift fork back and off of throw out bearing -unbolt and remove bell housing -mark pressure plate and flywheel to make sure you get it back in the exact same place -unbolt and remove pressure plate -inspect/replace pilot busing as necessary -Clean and inspect pressure plate & flywheel Now you’re ready to reinstall the transmission. Just reverse the process and you’re good to go. Appendix A. The stupid !@#%^$#& shift knob Gently pry the shift pattern insert out of the shift knob. A small screwdriver does nicely. You can put a piece of tape on the edge of the leather to keep the screwdriver from marring the leather (thanks to Johnny Phrogs for the pics) Now comes the fun part. There’s a metal wedging key that locks the knob to the shifter that has to come out before you can unscrew the knob. In the next picture you can see that Johnny used a pair of pliers to grab the thing and yank it out. It looks deceptively simple, but it isn’t. I gave up on the pliers and started hunting for something that I could wedge under the edge and pry it up. Inspiration hit and I found some roofing nails. The head on a roofing nail is very thin and is very strong. I slid the nail head under the edge and gently rocked the wedging key. Up it came. Appendix B: C-Beam Bolts It is a major PITA to get a wrench on the c-beam nuts on the transmission end. There is absolutely no room to get your hand up and over the c-beam and transmission. Everything must be done by feel. My hat is off to anyone who put the original nuts back on the c-beam bolts. I highly recommend Bill Boudreau’s (the ZF Doc) “C-Beam Plates” they make the job a lot easier. There is a really nice write up on them over at the Corvette Action Center: http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...php/product/27 Bill has a very nice write up on transmission removal on his site: http://www.zfdoc.com/transmission.htm TomC "Crabs" __________________ TomC '90ZR1 #792 Honorary Pirate [B]If it ain't FUN, you're doing something terribly WRONG. [/B] Last edited by tccrab; 10-11-2008 at 02:10 AM.

10-12-2008	#30
flyin ryan Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Edmonton, Alberta or Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 2,742	Re: Your ZF6 makes noises or won't shift, what to do? i've just recently pulled the ZF out of my Ruby Zee. wasn't that bad, went pretty smooth & quick __________________ There are no limit's mans ingenuity, just as mans ingenuity will never conquer the forces & behavior of this planet...Smokey Y.